The Culture Wars Are Over
So at another site today, the forums got a bit lively about abortion and same-sex marriage with the clever and subtle title of No liberal cause is defended with more dishonesty than abortion.
I posted two replies
The First
If it was us guys who could get pregnant, abortion would be legal, Governement funded with paid counseling to deal with any psychological aftereffects
It's a woman's body, it's a woman's choice, it's that simple
Don't want an abortion, simple, don't have one
NO male would EVER stand for letting the state tell him what he could or could not do with his genitals
That abortion ban in South Dakota?
Kiss it goodbye come November, and quite a few of those idiot legislators who voted to make women 3rd class citizens by trying to push them back into the dark ages, hopefully, they'll get their worthless hides booted out of office as well
Why is it the supposed/alleged "right to lifers" are against birth control, and abortion, yet also want no welfare benefits for single, jobless mothers the second the fetus is born?
And one CANNOT be "pro-life" and in favor of the Death Penalty, not logically
The Supreme Court overturning Roe vs Wade will be the death knell for the GOP and it's theological extremist base
Want proof?
How'd injecting the national leadership of the party into the Terri Schiavo affair pay off in a positive way for the GOP?
Oh, that's right, it didn't
The GOP AND the religious extremists determined to keep Terri Schiavo alive against her wishes got a harsh smack in the face and backed off with nothing more powerful than whimpers when it became apparent that the overwhelming majority of the US public strongly disagreed with the GOP and the supposed/alleged "right to lifers", but DID agree with Michael Schiavo
The Culture Wars are over, the effect may be delayed, as it is with same sex marriage, but the rightwing, as it was with slavery, is on the wrong side of history by opposing same sex unions
The younger adults in our society are much more tolerant of homosexuality, and that acceptance will only EXPAND with time, not decrease
The culture wars are over, make peace with it and move on
And the second, with the comments I was responding to
The culture wars are over? The secular humanists have finally triumphed over the Christian conservatives?
Have you spent much time talking to folks from the great middle of this country (that generally includes anyone outside the ultra-liberal coastal enclaves of LA, SF, Seattle, Boston, NY, etc.)? They still support the death penalty and are against church-based gay marriage with a vengeance. They still oppose gun control, and believe that schools that sponsor freak dances and rap music festivals should not muzzle the voices of Christan students.
The culture wars are far from over.
My reply
Churches can marry whomever they wish, but a Justice of the Peace would have to marry any of-age couple with the proper document-a wedding license
The playing of the "poor Christian believers are so persecuted these days" card is nothing more than a complete joke, they help the GOP control the White House, Senate and Congress, how persecuted can they possibly be?
Show me one Christian arrested and imprisoned for living up to Christ's Ideals, and I'm referring specifically to the Christ in the New Testament
Show me a Christian officially sanctioned by the Government solely for their faith if it affects them alone-As long as their choice affects themselves only-and not, say, Christian Scientists refusing to allow life-saving medical care for their children, and denied solely for the parents' religious beliefs
The right got smacked around regarding Terri Schiavo
And how'd that gay-bashing Constituional Amendment go over in the Senate again?
Oh, that's right, since the last time the issue was pushed in the Senate, only one more Senator joined the CA club, and even then it wasn't a majority, hell, the count hasn't even reached 50 yet
And the fact is that trying to play the gay-bashing card like Karl Rove favors did NOT inflame most of the country, not even close
There is NO logical, ethical or material reason for homophobia
Show me how gay marriage takes money out of the pockets of heterosexuals, or stops straights from putting food on the table
Try using logic to show how same-sex unions pose ANY kind of a threat to heterosexual marriages-It can't be done
And if one wishes to use the bible to gay-bash, then every single other biblical law/canon that requires death on the part of the lawbreaker must be followed just as strongly and vociferously as those punishing homosexuality
Otherwise, what's being preached is nothing but hypocrisy on the part of the anti-gay rabble, willful ignorance that's an affront to the same God who gave us the power of mind and abstract thought
All those laws against Same-Sex Unions, enshrined in state constitutions?
They'll ALL be overturned or invalidated, EVERY SINGLE ONE, just as surely as all the laws against race-mixing were eventually & rightly scrapped on history's rubbish heap
Abortion is another issue the religious right refuses to acknowledge they'll never win
Locking up Dr's and women involved in undergoing an abortion is nothing but a pipe-dream that the vast majority of the citizens in this country will never stand for, that's why the issue of jailing or punishing women for undergoing an abortion is NEVER proposed by even the hardest of anti-choice zealots
The Culture Wars come down to nothing more than off-key caterwauling by those miserable unless others not of their faith are suffering more. These stands are pushed by those whose faith-in a God or themselves-is so weak the only validation it brings is to force unbelieving others to acknowledge its supremacy and legitimacy as the one sure way to "truth"
I would bet within 10-20 years, TOPS, there will be no more blather & nonsense about same-sex unions, they'll be legal in every locale in the country
When it comes to abortion and "pro-life", very few of us are consistent. I'm against the Death Penalty in all but a minute percent of cases offered, but have no problems with abortion in the least, at any time for any reason
My sister, she's against abortions in most cases AND is against the Death Penalty as well
And that's the only way one can logically and ethically refer to themselves as "pro-life"
There are still splutters of rightwing outrage, but in the end, the culture wars are going to end with the religious right finally losing any & all claims to represent the mainstream of US politics & society
We saw that with Terri Schiavo
We're seeing that with Gay Marriage, it's not even an issue for most conservatives as well, as This Nifty FOX News Poll from early May of this year points out
Notice, particularly, Question #14 on the pdf., the one dealing with the top 20 concerns of those polled by FOX News, then notice which issues are NOT even listed
That's right, Same-Sex Unions & Abortion
Now if there's one thing Fox News cannot be accused of logically or with a straight face, it's that Fox is a liberal media outlet
Karl Rove's attempt to play the gay-bashing card in this election, which was successful in 2004, will not work this time, there's far too much negative news out there that hits the majority of US citizens trying to get by these days, especially with the middle class and working poor
Somehow, same-sex unions don't seem so threatening when gas is over $3.00 a gallon and rising, tens of millions of US citizens have no health care coverage and an unnecessary war is draining the military and treasury in terms of lives, limbs, blood, minds and money, staggering amounts of money
The Culture Wars are already over because real-world issues and unpleasantness take far more precedence for the vast majority of people as opposed to following a tiny minority of those who claim a certain brand of religious faith, a lifestyle choice if there ever was one
The sooner Dobson, Sun Myung Moon, Falwell, Robertson and Phelps admit to themselves the battles are lost and it's time to move on, the better off they, and this country, will be, and the more they can follow Jesus teachings to give away all they have to the poor
If they're so convinced God's on their side, then God will surely provide for these types were they to follow Christ's exhortations in terms of giving all to the poor, comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable
Matthew 23 shows that there's only one group Christ ever got angry enough with to denounce publicly and loudly, and that would be the Pharisees and their pious hypocrisy
That's an eruption of anger that applies just as well today when aimed at the theological bullies making up the extreme far right base of the GOP
If I were those individuals, I'd start trying to atone for all my arrogance in stating that God's creations-homosexuals-are an abomination in the eyes of the same God that created them in the first place
I posted two replies
The First
If it was us guys who could get pregnant, abortion would be legal, Governement funded with paid counseling to deal with any psychological aftereffects
It's a woman's body, it's a woman's choice, it's that simple
Don't want an abortion, simple, don't have one
NO male would EVER stand for letting the state tell him what he could or could not do with his genitals
That abortion ban in South Dakota?
Kiss it goodbye come November, and quite a few of those idiot legislators who voted to make women 3rd class citizens by trying to push them back into the dark ages, hopefully, they'll get their worthless hides booted out of office as well
Why is it the supposed/alleged "right to lifers" are against birth control, and abortion, yet also want no welfare benefits for single, jobless mothers the second the fetus is born?
And one CANNOT be "pro-life" and in favor of the Death Penalty, not logically
The Supreme Court overturning Roe vs Wade will be the death knell for the GOP and it's theological extremist base
Want proof?
How'd injecting the national leadership of the party into the Terri Schiavo affair pay off in a positive way for the GOP?
Oh, that's right, it didn't
The GOP AND the religious extremists determined to keep Terri Schiavo alive against her wishes got a harsh smack in the face and backed off with nothing more powerful than whimpers when it became apparent that the overwhelming majority of the US public strongly disagreed with the GOP and the supposed/alleged "right to lifers", but DID agree with Michael Schiavo
The Culture Wars are over, the effect may be delayed, as it is with same sex marriage, but the rightwing, as it was with slavery, is on the wrong side of history by opposing same sex unions
The younger adults in our society are much more tolerant of homosexuality, and that acceptance will only EXPAND with time, not decrease
The culture wars are over, make peace with it and move on
And the second, with the comments I was responding to
The culture wars are over? The secular humanists have finally triumphed over the Christian conservatives?
Have you spent much time talking to folks from the great middle of this country (that generally includes anyone outside the ultra-liberal coastal enclaves of LA, SF, Seattle, Boston, NY, etc.)? They still support the death penalty and are against church-based gay marriage with a vengeance. They still oppose gun control, and believe that schools that sponsor freak dances and rap music festivals should not muzzle the voices of Christan students.
The culture wars are far from over.
My reply
Churches can marry whomever they wish, but a Justice of the Peace would have to marry any of-age couple with the proper document-a wedding license
The playing of the "poor Christian believers are so persecuted these days" card is nothing more than a complete joke, they help the GOP control the White House, Senate and Congress, how persecuted can they possibly be?
Show me one Christian arrested and imprisoned for living up to Christ's Ideals, and I'm referring specifically to the Christ in the New Testament
Show me a Christian officially sanctioned by the Government solely for their faith if it affects them alone-As long as their choice affects themselves only-and not, say, Christian Scientists refusing to allow life-saving medical care for their children, and denied solely for the parents' religious beliefs
The right got smacked around regarding Terri Schiavo
And how'd that gay-bashing Constituional Amendment go over in the Senate again?
Oh, that's right, since the last time the issue was pushed in the Senate, only one more Senator joined the CA club, and even then it wasn't a majority, hell, the count hasn't even reached 50 yet
And the fact is that trying to play the gay-bashing card like Karl Rove favors did NOT inflame most of the country, not even close
There is NO logical, ethical or material reason for homophobia
Show me how gay marriage takes money out of the pockets of heterosexuals, or stops straights from putting food on the table
Try using logic to show how same-sex unions pose ANY kind of a threat to heterosexual marriages-It can't be done
And if one wishes to use the bible to gay-bash, then every single other biblical law/canon that requires death on the part of the lawbreaker must be followed just as strongly and vociferously as those punishing homosexuality
Otherwise, what's being preached is nothing but hypocrisy on the part of the anti-gay rabble, willful ignorance that's an affront to the same God who gave us the power of mind and abstract thought
All those laws against Same-Sex Unions, enshrined in state constitutions?
They'll ALL be overturned or invalidated, EVERY SINGLE ONE, just as surely as all the laws against race-mixing were eventually & rightly scrapped on history's rubbish heap
Abortion is another issue the religious right refuses to acknowledge they'll never win
Locking up Dr's and women involved in undergoing an abortion is nothing but a pipe-dream that the vast majority of the citizens in this country will never stand for, that's why the issue of jailing or punishing women for undergoing an abortion is NEVER proposed by even the hardest of anti-choice zealots
The Culture Wars come down to nothing more than off-key caterwauling by those miserable unless others not of their faith are suffering more. These stands are pushed by those whose faith-in a God or themselves-is so weak the only validation it brings is to force unbelieving others to acknowledge its supremacy and legitimacy as the one sure way to "truth"
I would bet within 10-20 years, TOPS, there will be no more blather & nonsense about same-sex unions, they'll be legal in every locale in the country
When it comes to abortion and "pro-life", very few of us are consistent. I'm against the Death Penalty in all but a minute percent of cases offered, but have no problems with abortion in the least, at any time for any reason
My sister, she's against abortions in most cases AND is against the Death Penalty as well
And that's the only way one can logically and ethically refer to themselves as "pro-life"
There are still splutters of rightwing outrage, but in the end, the culture wars are going to end with the religious right finally losing any & all claims to represent the mainstream of US politics & society
We saw that with Terri Schiavo
We're seeing that with Gay Marriage, it's not even an issue for most conservatives as well, as This Nifty FOX News Poll from early May of this year points out
Notice, particularly, Question #14 on the pdf., the one dealing with the top 20 concerns of those polled by FOX News, then notice which issues are NOT even listed
That's right, Same-Sex Unions & Abortion
Now if there's one thing Fox News cannot be accused of logically or with a straight face, it's that Fox is a liberal media outlet
Karl Rove's attempt to play the gay-bashing card in this election, which was successful in 2004, will not work this time, there's far too much negative news out there that hits the majority of US citizens trying to get by these days, especially with the middle class and working poor
Somehow, same-sex unions don't seem so threatening when gas is over $3.00 a gallon and rising, tens of millions of US citizens have no health care coverage and an unnecessary war is draining the military and treasury in terms of lives, limbs, blood, minds and money, staggering amounts of money
The Culture Wars are already over because real-world issues and unpleasantness take far more precedence for the vast majority of people as opposed to following a tiny minority of those who claim a certain brand of religious faith, a lifestyle choice if there ever was one
The sooner Dobson, Sun Myung Moon, Falwell, Robertson and Phelps admit to themselves the battles are lost and it's time to move on, the better off they, and this country, will be, and the more they can follow Jesus teachings to give away all they have to the poor
If they're so convinced God's on their side, then God will surely provide for these types were they to follow Christ's exhortations in terms of giving all to the poor, comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable
Matthew 23 shows that there's only one group Christ ever got angry enough with to denounce publicly and loudly, and that would be the Pharisees and their pious hypocrisy
That's an eruption of anger that applies just as well today when aimed at the theological bullies making up the extreme far right base of the GOP
If I were those individuals, I'd start trying to atone for all my arrogance in stating that God's creations-homosexuals-are an abomination in the eyes of the same God that created them in the first place
posted by KingCranky II at
3:45 PM
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