Here Comes Another Rant Against The Forced-Birth Movement
Various thoughts I left at various sites dealing with what, at first glance, seems to be a big win for the anti-choicers in this country
The forced pregnancy and forced birth movement got a big win today, which is too bad for the poor women unable to procure a medically necessary late term abortion to save their lives and health
Unlike those women of the legislators who approved this sham bill signed into law by a clueless President, women who can afford to save their lives and health if an abortion of this type is medically necessary can travel to locations where the procedure is still allowed, while poor women are being told their lives and health don't count for anything
The claim that this type of abortion-and it's called late term abortion, as the description "partial birth abortion" does NOT appear in any reputable medical journals-is never medically necessary is complete BS
But hey, if the GOP wants more nails to pound in it's coffin come election day 2008, I'm all for it, as abortion has been one issue the GOP has never really wanted to end, it brings in far too much in terms of campaign contributions for other forced-birth & forced pregnancy candidates
The bad part is that the GOP knows that if it riles up enough freedom-loving people about abortion, it's screwed at the polls
When those in the forced birth & forced pregnancy movement start caring about a life after it's out of the womb, maybe then they'll have some credibility on this issue, but if past precedent still holds, the only time so many of those who favor forced birth squawk about life after the womb is in backing the death penalty
That's why I'll use the terms "forced birth" and "forced pregnancy", because if they favor the Death Penalty, then they are NOT "pro life"
Ooops, let's shoot down that "Never medically necessary" BS about late-term abortions
Over 95% of induced abortions in the second trimester are performed using the D&E method. The alternatives to D&E in the second trimester are abdominal surgery or induction abortion. Doctors rarely perform an abortion by abdominal surgery because doing so entails far greater risks to the woman. The induction method imposes serious risks to women with certain medical conditions and is entirely contraindicated for others.
The intact variant of D&E offers significant safety advantages over the non-intact method, including a reduced risk of catastrophic hemorrhage and life-threatening infection. These safety advantages are widely recognized by experts in the field of women's health, authoritative medical texts, peer-reviewed studies, and the nation's leading medical schools. ACOG has thus concluded that an intact D&E "may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of the woman, and only the doctor in consultation with the patient, based on the woman's particular circumstances can make that decision."
If it was us guys who could get pregnant, there’d be no debate or fuss about this issue, we’d get paid counseling, time off from work and a Govt subsidy if we were too poor to afford an abortion otherwise
There’d be no stupid attempts to stop us pregnant males from going through an abortion, especially no “24 hour waiting periods” for those of us who had to travel hours to get to the clinic, only to be told we have to wait another 24 hours
Since the woman carries the fetus, it’s completely her choice regarding abortion, and that means at any time, for any reason
But there’s a very simple solution to this, and it relates to “adopt the fetus”
A poor woman will be provided with full, pre-natal care, with all costs provided by forced-pregnancy/forced-birth advocates, and all expenses of the baby covered until the age of 18, even if the birth mother doesn’t want her child to know or meet it’s anti-choice financier
Women who are against abortion, and are of child-bearing age should offer to have the fetus transferred from the mother considering abortion and transplanted into the anti-choicer’s womb, with the knowledge that if the original, biological mother decides she wants the child after all, she gets it back, even after the surrogate has given birth, and still have all child-related expenses paid for by those of the forced-pregnancy/forced-birth mindset until the child hits 18
Sure, these would be hard principles for the anti-choicers to live by, but we’d sure learn real quick if their wallets matched their rhetoric
BTW-there's all sorts of kids in foster care, children & teens with mental and emotional problems, babies with serious medical conditions, healthy non-white infants, and all are just waiting to be adopted, so when I see the forced-breeders start to clear up this backlog, then I'll seriously consider what they have to say
At one forum, I quoted one poster who said
After reading some of these posts, I'm wondering if any of these posters opposing the ban have even read the Supreme Court's decision. It appears some of you believe this is a ban on all late term abortions instead of only partial birth abortions of a living fetus (baby).
Get the facts.
To which I replied
I've got the facts just fine, dispute my interpretation if you think otherwise
And if any woman dies, or her health/ability to bear future children is compromised because she couldn't terminate her pregnancy in the safest possible way, that's a Hell of a price to pay for others to blather about morality and "sanctity of life"
Lets get this clear, as I doubt there's any real, independently verifiable cases of the following to prove me wrong:
I have yet to see, hear, or read about any late term-abortions done because the woman has suddenly decided-through sheer vanity that didn't show itself until well into the pregnancy-that she no longer wants to carry the fetus to term, treating a late-term abortion like it's some entry on a "to do" list
Dentist appointment: Check
Get late-term abortion: Check
Get BMW painted a new color: Check
Mail bill payments: Check
Women who get late term abortions do so because, to save their lives or preserve their health, including the ability to bear children in the future, it's the most efficient, safe way to end a hazardous pregnancy
This issue is clearly a sham, but a sham that is going to affect real women who don't wield the political clout necessary to keep the forced-birthers at bay
But you're right that this applies only to a form of late term abortion, Bush Jr is clearly hoping the far-right wing of the GOP base won't start agitating to outright repeal Roe Vs Wade, as the last thing he needs with a Congress whose bills W is going to veto constantly is to try and get another far right voice confirmed for Supreme Court service through an angry Senate majority
Since the GOP is adamant enough about abortion to overturn it as a party policy, then why doesn't it go all out and be ethically consistent in how abhorrent it finds abortion, or is this nothing more than political pandering in the extreme?
Why doesn't the GOP have it's members propose bills that would lock up & execute doctors who provide abortions and women who have them?
Seems that's the only logical choices the GOP leaves itself by pushing an anti-abortion/pro forced-breeding viewpoint in blathering about overturning Roe Vs Wade
Of course, the GOP does NOT push those proposals in spite of how fiercely they agitate against a woman's right to choose, because the party knows, especially after how badly it got smacked down by the overwhelming majority of the US public regarding the GOP's meddling in the Terri Schiavo case, just how badly it's future political success-already on the "Dismal" side-would be damaged
If a person does not have complete control over any and all medical procedures they are willing to undergo, then the very concept of freedom is empty
This applies to any society that would also force women to have abortions, which just shows the strange bedfellows of US social conservatives and Chinese communists that a shared ideological mindset-of total control and complete mistrust of women-brings about
If the GOP is NOT going to placate it's far right base and try to overturn Roe VS Wade, then it's obviously a message no one else should respect or take seriously either, and it's one the party should just jettison now, as the last thing the GOP needs going into the 2008 elections is even more angry voters aiming their ire at it
Easy way to see how this Administration plays the most socially conservative of it's backers as saps and morons, is see which group W sides with when he has to choose between his business & corporate base VS his socially conservative base
W goes with the money, the group he referred to as his base of "the haves and the have-mores", just look at the backgrounds of Alito & Roberts, they're more corporatist than conservative
Maybe W's more theological supporters should press him as to why he's not actively pushing the GOP to overturn Roe VS Wade, and blast him for putting political success over "doing what's right" in their eyes
I sense a political snare for the GOP, the success in shooting down the late term abortion procedure is going to lead the far right into pushing for overturning Roe, a position that is not shared by the majority of the voters
This decision today will have a blowback against whoever gets the GOP nomination, they'll have to pander hard about repealing Roe in order to win the nomination, which will only make it harder to win the Presidential election for the actual GOP candidate
As much as I blasted Slick Clinton for all his Dick Morris scripted "triangulation", I have to give him credit on about the one liberal stand Clinton actually held firm about, vetoing each and every attempt to ban late term abortions when the bills reached his desk, and never apologizing for those vetos either
When every child and teen in foster care is adopted into good and loving families, when every non-white infant, when every child with severe mental, physical or emotional problems is adopted into a loving family, when all that backlog is cleared out, then, MAYBE, we'll talk if there's a backlog of adoptive families willing to take in children and adults, no matter their physical, mental or emotional infirmities
In other words, an impossible reality would actually have to come about before I'd ever say a woman doesn't have the ultimate right to decide her own fate
Oh yeah, you supposed "moderates" and "liberal" organizations, this isn't just the GOP Wingnuts fault this decision occurred, you swine bear much of the blame as well
The forced pregnancy and forced birth movement got a big win today, which is too bad for the poor women unable to procure a medically necessary late term abortion to save their lives and health
Unlike those women of the legislators who approved this sham bill signed into law by a clueless President, women who can afford to save their lives and health if an abortion of this type is medically necessary can travel to locations where the procedure is still allowed, while poor women are being told their lives and health don't count for anything
The claim that this type of abortion-and it's called late term abortion, as the description "partial birth abortion" does NOT appear in any reputable medical journals-is never medically necessary is complete BS
But hey, if the GOP wants more nails to pound in it's coffin come election day 2008, I'm all for it, as abortion has been one issue the GOP has never really wanted to end, it brings in far too much in terms of campaign contributions for other forced-birth & forced pregnancy candidates
The bad part is that the GOP knows that if it riles up enough freedom-loving people about abortion, it's screwed at the polls
When those in the forced birth & forced pregnancy movement start caring about a life after it's out of the womb, maybe then they'll have some credibility on this issue, but if past precedent still holds, the only time so many of those who favor forced birth squawk about life after the womb is in backing the death penalty
That's why I'll use the terms "forced birth" and "forced pregnancy", because if they favor the Death Penalty, then they are NOT "pro life"
Ooops, let's shoot down that "Never medically necessary" BS about late-term abortions
Over 95% of induced abortions in the second trimester are performed using the D&E method. The alternatives to D&E in the second trimester are abdominal surgery or induction abortion. Doctors rarely perform an abortion by abdominal surgery because doing so entails far greater risks to the woman. The induction method imposes serious risks to women with certain medical conditions and is entirely contraindicated for others.
The intact variant of D&E offers significant safety advantages over the non-intact method, including a reduced risk of catastrophic hemorrhage and life-threatening infection. These safety advantages are widely recognized by experts in the field of women's health, authoritative medical texts, peer-reviewed studies, and the nation's leading medical schools. ACOG has thus concluded that an intact D&E "may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of the woman, and only the doctor in consultation with the patient, based on the woman's particular circumstances can make that decision."
If it was us guys who could get pregnant, there’d be no debate or fuss about this issue, we’d get paid counseling, time off from work and a Govt subsidy if we were too poor to afford an abortion otherwise
There’d be no stupid attempts to stop us pregnant males from going through an abortion, especially no “24 hour waiting periods” for those of us who had to travel hours to get to the clinic, only to be told we have to wait another 24 hours
Since the woman carries the fetus, it’s completely her choice regarding abortion, and that means at any time, for any reason
But there’s a very simple solution to this, and it relates to “adopt the fetus”
A poor woman will be provided with full, pre-natal care, with all costs provided by forced-pregnancy/forced-birth advocates, and all expenses of the baby covered until the age of 18, even if the birth mother doesn’t want her child to know or meet it’s anti-choice financier
Women who are against abortion, and are of child-bearing age should offer to have the fetus transferred from the mother considering abortion and transplanted into the anti-choicer’s womb, with the knowledge that if the original, biological mother decides she wants the child after all, she gets it back, even after the surrogate has given birth, and still have all child-related expenses paid for by those of the forced-pregnancy/forced-birth mindset until the child hits 18
Sure, these would be hard principles for the anti-choicers to live by, but we’d sure learn real quick if their wallets matched their rhetoric
BTW-there's all sorts of kids in foster care, children & teens with mental and emotional problems, babies with serious medical conditions, healthy non-white infants, and all are just waiting to be adopted, so when I see the forced-breeders start to clear up this backlog, then I'll seriously consider what they have to say
At one forum, I quoted one poster who said
After reading some of these posts, I'm wondering if any of these posters opposing the ban have even read the Supreme Court's decision. It appears some of you believe this is a ban on all late term abortions instead of only partial birth abortions of a living fetus (baby).
Get the facts.To which I replied
I've got the facts just fine, dispute my interpretation if you think otherwise
And if any woman dies, or her health/ability to bear future children is compromised because she couldn't terminate her pregnancy in the safest possible way, that's a Hell of a price to pay for others to blather about morality and "sanctity of life"
Lets get this clear, as I doubt there's any real, independently verifiable cases of the following to prove me wrong:
I have yet to see, hear, or read about any late term-abortions done because the woman has suddenly decided-through sheer vanity that didn't show itself until well into the pregnancy-that she no longer wants to carry the fetus to term, treating a late-term abortion like it's some entry on a "to do" list
Dentist appointment: Check
Get late-term abortion: Check
Get BMW painted a new color: Check
Mail bill payments: Check
Women who get late term abortions do so because, to save their lives or preserve their health, including the ability to bear children in the future, it's the most efficient, safe way to end a hazardous pregnancy
This issue is clearly a sham, but a sham that is going to affect real women who don't wield the political clout necessary to keep the forced-birthers at bay
But you're right that this applies only to a form of late term abortion, Bush Jr is clearly hoping the far-right wing of the GOP base won't start agitating to outright repeal Roe Vs Wade, as the last thing he needs with a Congress whose bills W is going to veto constantly is to try and get another far right voice confirmed for Supreme Court service through an angry Senate majority
Since the GOP is adamant enough about abortion to overturn it as a party policy, then why doesn't it go all out and be ethically consistent in how abhorrent it finds abortion, or is this nothing more than political pandering in the extreme?
Why doesn't the GOP have it's members propose bills that would lock up & execute doctors who provide abortions and women who have them?
Seems that's the only logical choices the GOP leaves itself by pushing an anti-abortion/pro forced-breeding viewpoint in blathering about overturning Roe Vs Wade
Of course, the GOP does NOT push those proposals in spite of how fiercely they agitate against a woman's right to choose, because the party knows, especially after how badly it got smacked down by the overwhelming majority of the US public regarding the GOP's meddling in the Terri Schiavo case, just how badly it's future political success-already on the "Dismal" side-would be damaged
If a person does not have complete control over any and all medical procedures they are willing to undergo, then the very concept of freedom is empty
This applies to any society that would also force women to have abortions, which just shows the strange bedfellows of US social conservatives and Chinese communists that a shared ideological mindset-of total control and complete mistrust of women-brings about
If the GOP is NOT going to placate it's far right base and try to overturn Roe VS Wade, then it's obviously a message no one else should respect or take seriously either, and it's one the party should just jettison now, as the last thing the GOP needs going into the 2008 elections is even more angry voters aiming their ire at it
Easy way to see how this Administration plays the most socially conservative of it's backers as saps and morons, is see which group W sides with when he has to choose between his business & corporate base VS his socially conservative base
W goes with the money, the group he referred to as his base of "the haves and the have-mores", just look at the backgrounds of Alito & Roberts, they're more corporatist than conservative
Maybe W's more theological supporters should press him as to why he's not actively pushing the GOP to overturn Roe VS Wade, and blast him for putting political success over "doing what's right" in their eyes
I sense a political snare for the GOP, the success in shooting down the late term abortion procedure is going to lead the far right into pushing for overturning Roe, a position that is not shared by the majority of the voters
This decision today will have a blowback against whoever gets the GOP nomination, they'll have to pander hard about repealing Roe in order to win the nomination, which will only make it harder to win the Presidential election for the actual GOP candidate
As much as I blasted Slick Clinton for all his Dick Morris scripted "triangulation", I have to give him credit on about the one liberal stand Clinton actually held firm about, vetoing each and every attempt to ban late term abortions when the bills reached his desk, and never apologizing for those vetos either
When every child and teen in foster care is adopted into good and loving families, when every non-white infant, when every child with severe mental, physical or emotional problems is adopted into a loving family, when all that backlog is cleared out, then, MAYBE, we'll talk if there's a backlog of adoptive families willing to take in children and adults, no matter their physical, mental or emotional infirmities
In other words, an impossible reality would actually have to come about before I'd ever say a woman doesn't have the ultimate right to decide her own fate
Oh yeah, you supposed "moderates" and "liberal" organizations, this isn't just the GOP Wingnuts fault this decision occurred, you swine bear much of the blame as well
Labels: Democracy Not Theocracy
posted by KingCranky II at
4:49 PM
3 Comments:
Here's what I want to know...
How come when the pregnancy is unwanted, the "parents" refer to it as a "fetus" or just a bunch of cells rather than a child, and an abortion is simply a "medical procedure". Yet later in life, when those same people experience a pregnancy they planned or are happy about, all of a sudden it is "I'm having a baby" (not a fetus). From the moment they discover they are pregnant, they start speaking to the baby un utero, lovingly caressing mom's not even slightly round yet belly, referring to that same little bunch of cells as "our child" as though it had life and meaning. If a pregnancy ends in this case it is called a miscarriage, and people are consoled and cared for as they would be if they lost an older child. So come on all you abortion proponents--what's with the double standard? If it isn't a child and isn't deserving of rights until it is born, then NONE of you have any right to bond with, speak to, or even love your "bunch of cells" in utero. That little bunch of cells is either deserving of consideration or it isn't. You don't get to have it both ways depending upon what makes you feel good at any given time.
And again, Cranky, let me point out that not all pro-life advocates support the death penalty...
By
Anonymous, at 9:36 AM
Oh, and one other thing...I don't actually have a problem with the term "forced birth". I do, however, find fault with the term forced pregnancy. Say what you will, but the vast majority of abortions in this country are the result of 2 adults engaging in consensual sex. Don't lay (no pun intended) the blame where it doesn't belong by calling this a "forced pregnancy". Call it an accident, an oversite, or just plain dumb luck, but NO ONE, in these cases, forced anyone to get pregnant.
Also, your argument about us "forced birth" advocates paying for the unwanted children of others doesn't work for me. We actually have a system like that already in place--it is called adoption. And the simple fact of the matter is, that not all of us who oppose abortion are wealthy. So no, I wouldn't be able to care for someone else's child, and I shouldn't have to. But that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to oppose abortion. I also hate the idea of euthanasia for homeless animals, but unfortunately, I can't save them all. Does that mean I have to condone the practice? Of course not. What it does mean is that I have an ethical duty to help where and when I can, which is what I do.
I just wish you'd consider that this issue is not as black and white as you seem to think it is. Not all of us who oppose abortion, are crazy, bible-thumping, republican men. Infact, in my case, it is just the opposite. I'm just someone who believes in the sanctity of life, which,in my opinion, begins at conception. And if I condoned abortion while holding the beliefs I do, then I would, literally, be condoning murder. And I get annoyed with hypocrite parents who, 15 years ago fresh out of highschool terminated a 2 month old "fetus", saying it had no value and wasn't an actual child. And yet, later in life, when they find themselves with a "wanted" pregnancy, they are talking to that same 2 month old "fetus", referring to it by name, and mourning it's loss if they miscarry. Oh, and by the way, try referring to her "fetus" when speaking to a newly, happily pregnant woman. I doubt she'll be impressed.
By
Anonymous, at 10:49 AM
I think its hilarious that forced birth dictators act like they care about the sanctity of life and not is QUALITY. Thanks to Niccoli Ceausescu, Romania is a HUGE glaring poster child of why forced birth and forced pregnancy is just disgusting and abhorrent. And yes I said FORCED PREGNANCY! forcing someone to GET pregnant is not the same as forcing them to STAY pregnant, but it sure does cover the same results. In Romania, there are children running the street offering oral sex to tourists (commonly referred to by them as "yum yum")so they can eat... Pro life? my pasty white ass. Where is their sanctity NOW forced birthers? its with their mother.. six feet under. OH! and did I forget to mention how Romania is the biggest child sex slavery ring in the world? I wonder why.. so you can shove that catholic "life is sacred" bullshit up your ass.
By
DevinND, at 2:06 PM
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